EP31.【双语版本】被硅谷遗忘的美学教育，对孩子究竟有多重要？
各位听友，
在你收听这一期的英文采访时，请同时参照以下的双语翻译文字。
主播：Lena，嘉宾：Shoshana，中文翻译：ChatGPT & Lena
Lena:
Hi, Shoshana. Thank you for being here today. I'm so happy to have you.
你好，Shoshana。感谢你今天来节目做客。我很高兴能邀请到你。
Shoshana:
Hi. Thank you for having me here.
你好，感谢邀请！
Lena:
I actually have been wanting to talk about this topic for such a long time because personally, I'm an art lover and I do love art. Since I was a kid, I have had such a huge passion about drawing and painting. So today, I'm so happy that you can actually join me to talk a little bit about art education and specifically in Silicon Valley here, right? So first of all, can you tell me a little bit about yourself as an art educator and also about your art?
其实，我一直想聊这个话题很久了。因为我个人是个艺术爱好者，我真的很喜欢艺术。从小我就对绘画充满热情。所以今天我很高兴你能加入这个对话，和我一起聊聊美术教育，特别是在硅谷的美术教育。那首先，你能介绍一下自己作为一名艺术教育者的经历，以及你的艺术创作吗？
Shoshana:
Sure. So I think like you, I've always had a passion for it. I think as far back as I remember, drawing was the thing I kind of moved towards. And from the time I was probably eight or ten, I carried a sketchbook everywhere I would go. I would go around drawing everyone I saw and I think portraits were really the thing I was most drawn to. A lot of it is because I was a really shy kid and art is such a wonderful way to express yourself without having to speak up in front of a group. (Lena: I get it.) That was a big draw for me. But when I got a bit older, I ended up deciding that I wanted to study art and I wanted that to be my area. So I went to Parsons School of Design. And while I was there, they had an education program. So I kind of stumbled into doing a little bit of both. Really, for me, I think the draw was I always enjoyed working with kids from the time I was young. I always babysat. I always worked with kids and I kind of stumbled into it, I guess.
当然。其实和你一样，我从小就对艺术充满热情。我记得，从我有记忆以来，绘画就是我最喜欢做的事情。大概从八岁或十岁开始，我走到哪儿都会随身带着一本速写本，随时随地画我看到的人。我想，肖像画一直是我最感兴趣的主题。部分原因是我小时候很害羞，而艺术是一种很棒的自我表达方式，可以让我不用在一群人面前讲话。（Lena：我懂你。）这对我来说是一个很大的吸引力。后来，我渐渐长大后，我决定要学习艺术，并把它作为我的专业领域。所以我去了帕森斯设计学院（Parsons School of Design）。在那里，他们有一个教育学科目，所以我算是无意间同时接触到了艺术和教育。其实，对我来说，我一直以来都喜欢和孩子们一起工作。从小我就经常帮人照看孩子，也一直和孩子们打交道，所以可以说，我有点儿是自然而然地走上了这条路。
Lena:
So you have two kids, correct?
你有两个孩子，对吧？
Shoshana:
I do.
是的。
Lena:
You're a mom as well as a mom and art educator. So I'm just curious. So how does that art immersion or art nurturing look like at home?
你既是一位妈妈，又是一位艺术类教育者。我很好奇，在你的家庭环境里，艺术的熏陶和培养是怎么展开的呢？
Shoshana:
That's actually a funny one. So I'll be really honest. My own children are much more drawn to like math and science and are not terribly excited by the art. So, you know, sometimes I almost think kids react to you and they want to do something different. But they have a lot more of their interests go towards the math and science.
这个其实很好笑。老实说，我自己的孩子其实更喜欢数学和科学，他们对艺术并没有太大的兴趣。有时候我甚至觉得，孩子们可能会有意无意地想和父母不一样，所以他们的兴趣更多地倾向于数学和科学。
Lena:
Yeah, but I have been to your house and I was amazed by how you use the cardboard to make the huge drawing thing in that kid's room. You know, it's just like how you create the space for your children with art.
是的，但我去过你家，我真的被你用纸板在孩子房间里做的巨大绘画作品惊艳到了。你知道吗？这就像是你用艺术为孩子们创造了一个特别的空间。
Shoshana:
Those were made by me and my kids together. And then we occasionally do family projects. I get really excited about decorating. So I do a lot of that around the house and I will bring the kids into it sometimes and get them involved in those things.
那些是我和孩子们一起做的。我们偶尔也会一起做一些家庭艺术创作项目。我对装饰特别感兴趣，所以我经常在家里做各种装饰。有时候，我会让孩子们参与进来，一起完成这些创意项目。
Lena:
Yeah, that's very cool. Tell me a little bit about your study in the art school, because you mentioned you've been to Parsons School.
这真的很酷！跟我聊聊你在艺术学院的学习经历吧，你刚才提到你去了帕森斯设计学院。
Shoshana:
So I went to Parsons in New York and I did a semester abroad in Paris.
是的，我在纽约的帕森斯学习过，还在巴黎交换过一个学期。
Lena:
Yeah, so how was that experience like in Paris? Because everybody would be like, oh my gosh, Paris, you know, the paradise for art, right?
那你在巴黎的那段经历怎么样？因为大家都会觉得，哇，巴黎可是艺术的天堂，对吧？
Shoshana:
You know, I mean, I think the beauty of it. So it was an American program in Paris. So in many ways it didn't feel that terribly different from the New York experience of Parsons. But the thing that's really different is that when you're in Europe, you're just sort of immersed in a world where there's so much art history, where you go to the museums and even walking down the streets, the architecture is like a museum. So I think it's an immersive experience being in Europe and seeing the art history there was something that helped me kind of grow as an art educator.
是的，我觉得最特别的地方在于 —— 我当时参加的是一个在巴黎的美国项目，所以从课程体验上来说，和纽约的帕森斯没有太大的不同。但真正的区别在于，欧洲本身就是一个充满艺术历史的地方。你去博物馆，甚至只是走在街上，建筑本身就像是一个露天博物馆。我觉得，身处欧洲，沉浸在这种艺术氛围中，这种体验对我来说非常有意义，也让我在成为一名艺术教育者的过程中有所成长。
Lena:
How did you first approach art as a child? Do you remember that moment?
你还记得自己小时候是怎么开始接触美术的吗？有没有一个让你印象深刻的瞬间？
Shoshana:
I mean, I think the biggest thing that I did is really I would just bring sketchbooks everywhere and I was really interested in portraits. And I can remember having art classes as a kid. And most of them followed what I didn't know it was called this at the time. They follow a curriculum called discipline based art education. And it's very teacher centered where they're having the goal of teaching you very specific skills. And most of the decisions and the concepts come from the educator. So I kind of grew up with that model of education. But when it comes to how I actually learned art, most of it really stemmed from outside of school, just spending a lot of time drawing without that structure. And the part where I developed the skill and I think where many people who are artists do it is that they just spend a lot of time doing the area of art they're passionate about. Yes, which I think kind of led me towards the model that I follow now, which is giving students that open studio time to create the thing they're passionate about.
我觉得我做得最多的一件事就是随身携带素描本，而且我对肖像特别感兴趣。我还记得小时候上过美术课，大多数课程都遵循一种我当时并不知道其名称的教学模式，叫作“学科本位艺术教育”（Discipline-Based Art Education）。这种模式非常以教师为中心，目标是教授你特定的技能，而大多数决策和创意概念都来自于教育者。因此，我是在这样的教育模式下成长的。
然而，当谈到我真正如何学习艺术时，大部分其实是在学校之外进行的——花大量时间自由地画画，而不是按照某种固定的结构。技能的提升，乃至许多艺术家习得艺术的方式，都是源于他们持续不断地投入时间去做自己真正热爱的艺术领域。这种经历也引导了我如今所践行的教学模式 —— 给学生提供开放式的创作空间，让他们自由创作自己真正感兴趣的东西。
Lena:
That's very interesting. What age were you when you started art class? Do you remember?
这很有意思。你还记得自己是几岁开始上美术课的吗？
Shoshana:
So I grew up in Pennsylvania, which is very different from California where since they passed a proposition back in like the 70s that they passed that really cut the funding to schools in California a lot. And art is pretty much always the first thing on the chopping block. So very few people growing up in California in the past 30 years grew up having art. But I grew up in Pennsylvania where most schools had an art educator. So I always had art classes from the time I started school. And I think I even had it in preschool.
我是在宾夕法尼亚州长大的，那里的教育体系与加州非常不同。加州自上世纪70年代通过了一项提案，大幅削减了学校的经费，而艺术教育通常是最先被砍掉的。因此，在过去30年里，很多在加州长大的人基本上都没有机会接触美术课。但我在宾夕法尼亚长大，那里的大多数学校都有专门的艺术教育工作者。从我开始上学起，我就一直有美术课，甚至在幼儿园时就已经接触到了。
Lena:
So do you remember how your parents supported you for your pursuit in art?
那么，你的父母是如何支持你追求艺术的呢？
Shoshana:
Yeah, I think they always would look at what I made and thought it was exciting and were encouraging of it. When I decided I wanted to go to college for art, they, you know, were a little bit nervous about the career prospects, but they were still even with that supportive. I think one of my biggest memories is when I was in high school, I wanted to just paint my walls and they were like, okay, go ahead.
他们总是很欣赏我的作品，觉得很有趣，也很鼓励我。当我决定要上艺术学院时，他们确实有些担忧我的职业前景，但即便如此，他们仍然给予了支持。我印象最深的一件事是，高中时我想在房间的一整面墙上作画，他们竟然同意了！
Lena:
So that just kind of reminds me of my own childhood because I loved drawing so much since I was like, maybe two years old. And I would have drawn like on anywhere, like the wall or like books or the photo albums, just like anywhere that has a blank page that I just want to draw on it, you know? Yes, my parents were, they were being very supportive and I went to art class. But that had been going on until I entered high school, which, you know, in China back in the days, when you enter in high school, all your focus will shift to the test for college, which is called Gaokao. And I think from then on, I just kind of stopped practicing art or drawing because all my time was just spent on academic learning and test preparation. I do remember my art teacher actually casually mentioned to me saying, I think you could consider applying to art school. But for some reason, I don't remember anybody in my friends or family circle would encourage me be like, hey, I think you would do great in art school. And I think you should go ahead, just pursue that dream. Also, I kind of got the impression that, you know, we need to be more practical about your future choice, right? It's like, oh, you know, being an artist, are you going to really be able to succeed, right? So now that I think back, and I was sometimes wonder what if, what if I actually went on that path that I chose art major for my college. So yeah, you mentioned something about the California education system, they cut down the budget for those programs, which sounds like very devastating to me. I think I wrote a blog like many years ago, just talking about my observation that in Silicon Valley, in general, I feel like parents or just all the school programs are heavily focusing on maybe science, math, robotics, coding, right? It's just very technology driven, which makes sense, because we're in the center of technology in the world, right? But I just feel like there are not that much. I mean, to me, not enough art programs providing to children. So can you share a little bit about your perspective, like how you see your observation, the art education environment here?
这让我想起了自己的童年。我大概两岁左右就非常喜欢画画了，任何可以画的地方 —— 墙上、书本上、相册里，只要是空白的地方，我就想画上点什么。我父母一直很支持我，也送我去上美术课。但这种情况一直持续到我进入高中。在我成长的中国，当年一旦进入高中，所有人的重心都会转向大学入学考试——高考。从那时起，我几乎完全停止了练习绘画，因为所有时间都被学术学习和考试准备占据了。
我记得我的美术老师曾随口对我说：“你可以考虑申请艺术院校。”但在我的朋友和家人圈子里，好像没有人会真正鼓励我去追求这个梦想。相反，我一直觉得，我们在选择未来时需要更“现实”一些。比如，会有人问：“做艺术家真的能成功吗？”
现在回想起来，我有时会想，如果当初选择了走美术专业这条路，我的人生会是怎样的？
你刚才提到加州的教育体系削减了艺术教育经费，这让我觉得很遗憾。我多年前写过一篇博客，谈到我在硅谷的观察。我发现这里的家长和学校项目都非常重视STEM课程，科学、数学、机器人、编程等科技领域的教育。这是可以理解的，毕竟这里是全球科技中心。但在我看来，提供给孩子的艺术教育机会实在太少了。你能分享一下你的观察吗？你对这里的艺术教育环境有何看法？
Shoshana:
Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, when I moved to Silicon Valley, coming from the East Coast, and I first looked at like art teaching jobs, I was actually really shocked that they just barely existed, because they just don't support that. So it was from the time they passed Prop 13 in the 70s, they cut all of funding towards art. And they're just so high school, there was a requirement that they have art education. But basically, from K to eight, it was like a bunch of bandaid programs of volunteers, maybe. And if they didn't have good volunteers, there just wouldn't be anything. And so it was kind of a shock to my system when I saw how poorly it's done in Silicon Valley compared to where I'm from. So like where I came from, most schools have an art educator, I got certified to become an art teacher. And then I came out here and like, there's no one who like very few people have my background are actually certified art teachers out here, because there's just like so little demand for it. That said, I think it's actually gotten way better, because it was like, two years ago that they passed Prop 28. So now they're actually, for the first time requiring art education for K to 12. Which is really exciting. It was essentially they some celebrities endorsed it, and they passed a ballot measure. And now it's actually a requirement. But even with that, the requirement. It hasn't made that shift to everybody having art to the degree that I'd hope to see.
当然。当我从东海岸搬到硅谷，并开始寻找艺术教育方面的工作时，我真的很震惊——这样的工作机会在这里几乎不存在，因为这里对艺术教育的支持太少了。
自从上世纪70年代加州通过13号提案（Prop 13）以来，艺术教育的经费被彻底削减。虽然高中仍然被要求提供艺术课程，但在K-8阶段，艺术教育基本上是靠一些临时的志愿者来维持。如果没有好的志愿者，学校可能就完全没有美术课。
与我成长的地方相比，这种情况真的让我大为震惊。在我老家，大多数学校都有专门的艺术教师。我自己也是经过认证的美术教育者，但当我来到加州，发现很少有像我这样接受过正式培训的美术教师，因为这里对这类职位的需求太少了。
不过，情况其实已经有所改善。两年前，加州通过了28号提案（Prop 28），首次将K-12的美术教育纳入法定要求，这是一件令人振奋的事情。这项法案得到了几位名人的支持，最终通过了公投。现在，美术教育正式成为必修课。
尽管如此，我仍然觉得，美术教育的普及程度还远远没有达到理想的状态。
Lena:
Yeah. I was wondering why, because, you know, the demand and how people understand the importance of art, I think maybe there's a little bit of a lack of awareness of how art influences children in their development, right? So as an art educator, will you just elaborate a little bit about that? Why is art so important?
为什么会这样呢？是不是因为人们还没有足够意识到美术教育对孩子成长的重要性？作为一名美术教育者，你能详细谈谈美术教育的意义吗？
Shoshana:
I mean, I think it's so integral to just human development. Every culture, every society historically has always used arts as a means of expressing their ideas, as a means of expressing their religion, as a means of expressing their worldviews. It's integral to every culture and every society and just comes naturally. Kids always draw before they start to write. (Lena: Exactly). It just comes along with the territory that that's what we do as humans.
艺术对人的成长至关重要。纵观历史，所有文化和社会都通过艺术来表达思想、信仰和世界观。艺术是人类文明的一部分，几乎是一种与生俱来的表达方式。孩子们在开始写字之前，就已经会画画了。（Lena：对，没错！）这本能地成为人类成长的一部分。
Lena:
Do you see how art actually benefits or impacts children's development mentally, physically? How can we let parents or the society know like, hey, you know, we actually really need art to nurture kids from early years through all the childhood?
你认为美术对孩子的心理和生理发展有什么积极影响？如何让家长和社会意识到艺术教育的重要性？
Shoshana:
Yeah, I mean, I think it absolutely does. It's a thing that kids crave. I see and I hear kids tell me that's the reason they want to go to school. In our typical public school, there's a lot of kids who really dread and don't want to go because they think math is boring because they think literacy is boring. But art is the area that they're excited and it gives them a reason they're motivated to be in the educational system in the first place. It's an area that people connect to more. It's just that chance to express ourselves, to share our ideas. It's just a big draw.
我觉得美术对孩子的成长影响深远。许多孩子告诉我，美术课是他们最期待的课程。事实上，在公立学校体系中，很多孩子对学术学习感到厌倦，觉得数学无聊、阅读无趣。但艺术、美学却是他们真正感兴趣的东西，让他们愿意去上学，让他们保持学习的动力。美术能让他们表达自己，分享想法，它本身就具有极大的吸引力。
Lena:
I think I only started realizing the importance of art in my very late 30s or early 40s, like now. So back in the days when I was just working so hard in the corporate world and, you know, I, of course, I see art, but I never really use art as a self-soothing or, you know, therapeutic way to just calm myself down. I think now in this age that I have children and I have a lot of things to deal with in my life. And from last semester, I started doing oil painting and I paint at home and I just started realizing, oh my gosh, this is such a process that can actually make my soul feel real peaceful and calm me down. And I feel nurtured and I feel my body and my mental health has improved so much. As I know nowadays, people also use art to do therapy, right? Like they use art to help people to feel better, which in general, I feel the education or the society doesn't really provide enough for people to have some time for art.
我觉得我直到三十多岁、甚至四十岁左右才真正意识到艺术的重要性。过去在职场打拼的那些年里，我当然会欣赏艺术作品，但从未把艺术当作一种自我疗愈的方式。直到去年，我开始学习油画，并在家里作画，我才发现，这个过程竟然能让我内心平静，感觉到被滋养，我的心理状态和身体状况都得到了改善。
如今，越来越多人将艺术作为一种治疗手段，比如艺术疗法能帮助人们减轻压力、改善心理健康。但总体而言，我仍然觉得，我们的教育体系和社会环境，并没有为人们提供足够的时间和空间去接触艺术。
Shoshana:
Yeah. I mean, I think the U.S., especially Silicon Valley, has a culture that's very, very focused on working and producing. (Lena: That's true). And I mean, when I look at the startup kind of cutthroat culture, we don't necessarily give our downtime to do the things that we value in life. And so it's the things that make us happy and the small things in life. And I think all of us, even those who are in no way an artist, are affected by and impacted by the art that we see around us, by our environments.
是的。我觉得美国，尤其是硅谷，有一种文化，非常非常专注于工作和生产。（Lena: 确实如此）。当我看到初创企业那种竞争激烈的文化时，我发现我们并没有真正留出时间去做那些我们在生活中真正珍视的事情。那些让我们快乐的事，生活中的点滴。我认为，我们所有人，即使完全不是艺术家，也都会受到我们周围艺术和环境的影响。
Lena:
Yeah, absolutely. I have this inspiration that I wanted to go back to art. It's because last summer I traveled with my family to Europe and I met some friends in France. We were having dinner in Cannes. So I met this French family. You know, they have this French grandma who looks just like a very typical grandma and she likes cooking and all that. But then I discovered she's actually a very good painter. She does oil painting and she showed me her artwork. And I was so amazed by that. She has loved painting since she was a kid. Of course, you know, when she just had her children and she didn't have time for that. But then when the children grew up a little bit and she started going back to painting every day and she's like, you know, this is just part of my life because I just enjoy doing it. It's not for I wanted to own an art degree or get a job here or sell my art or make money. She doesn't have any purpose to get out of this. It's just pure enjoyment. And that just inspired me a lot because I feel like nowadays a lot of us are so purpose driven. Like if you feel like, oh, if I invest my time in doing art, what I'm going to get by the end of the day. Right. But maybe you just forget that just purely enjoying that moment gives you a lot of benefit. You don't even realize that. Right. Yeah. So I appreciate art educators so much, especially in Silicon Valley, because I don't really see that many now. And also, I don't know if you would be able to share a little bit about just in general, the art educators in Silicon Valley. Are there situations that are good for them to make a living here? I really want to advocate for them.
是的，完全同意。我之所以重新燃起对艺术的兴趣，是因为去年夏天我和家人去欧洲旅行，在法国见到了一些朋友。我们在戛纳共进晚餐时，我认识了一个法国家庭。他们的奶奶看起来就像一个非常典型的老奶奶，喜欢做饭等等。但后来我发现，她其实是一位非常出色的油画画家。她向我展示了她的作品，我简直惊呆了。她从小就热爱绘画。当然，在她刚有孩子的时候，她没有时间画画，但等孩子稍微长大一些，她又开始每天画画。她说，这就是她生活的一部分，她纯粹是因为喜欢才去画画，并不是为了获得艺术学位、找一份相关的工作、卖画或赚钱。她没有任何功利性的目的，只是单纯地享受绘画的过程。这让我深受启发，因为我觉得，如今我们很多人都太过功利导向了。比如，如果你花时间去做艺术，可能会想：“我最终能从中得到什么？” 但我们可能忘了，单纯地享受这个过程本身，就能带来很多我们未曾意识到的好处，对吧？所以，我真的很感谢艺术教育工作者，尤其是在硅谷，因为这里的艺术类教育者已经很少了。而且，我不知道你是否能分享一下硅谷的艺术类教育者的现状？他们的生活是否能够维持？我真的很想为他们发声。
Shoshana:
Yeah, I mean, OK, so I will say I think just educators in general as a whole, in many ways, the public school system in particular is really in many ways that in a crisis where teachers are really burnt out. Teachers are really struggling in many ways. People are leaving the education system. And then when it comes to art itself here, which first of all, in many places for K-8 just barely existed up until now, it's not a lot of space made in the system for art education. I think it's changing hopefully with them having passed Prop 28. But even with that, like the couple of people I talked to that are in public school system, I've moved kind of to a private school now. But the couple of people I talked to in the public school system, they still have sort of a bandaid program. They have like a program. It's called CSMA Arts for All that comes in and they have teachers that go to multiple schools and come in and do a class every other week. But it's a very different thing from it being integrated as a core academic subject, the way that math or literacy or science is a core topic. We don't think of it as a core academic topic, I think, in most schools, even in schools where I grew up that do it better. They still put it below the math and the science and literacy as sort of the it's just the arts. And so I think we need to change our thinking of it. We are kind of in this world, especially like as all of our new technology is developing where half the jobs that people do are going to get automated out. So creative thinking is probably one of the most important skills that we can give people.
是的，我想说，不仅仅是美学教育者，整个教育工作者群体都面临很多困难。尤其是公立学校系统，在很多方面已经陷入了危机。教师们的职业倦怠非常严重，他们在很多方面都在挣扎，许多人正在离开教育行业。而就艺术美学类教育来说，K-8年级（幼儿园至八年级）在很多地方几乎是空白的，系统中根本没有为美术教育预留足够的空间。我认为，随着第28号提案（Prop 28）的通过，这种情况可能会有所改善。但即便如此，我和一些在公立学校系统工作的朋友聊过，他们仍然只能依赖一些临时性的方案。例如，有一个叫CSMA（Arts for All）的项目，他们会派老师去多所学校，每隔一周上一次课。但这与艺术作为核心学科被纳入课程体系是完全不同的。数学、文学和科学都是学校的核心课程，而艺术却没有被这样对待。我认为，在大多数学校里，即使是那些艺术教育做得相对较好的学校，也依然把艺术排在数学、科学和阅读之后，觉得它只是“艺术”而已。我认为我们需要改变这种思维方式。
我们正处在一个快速发展的时代，尤其是随着新技术的进步，未来有一半的工作都可能会被自动化取代。在这样的背景下，创造性思维可能是我们能给予下一代最重要的能力之一。
Lena:
Totally. Yeah. Especially nowadays, you know, with the rising of AI, people are start thinking like some job designing art, you know, AI can do it. But can it? What you just talked about, like how children express themselves through drawing and art. That's very interesting because I want to just talk a little bit about that part, because I feel like for most parents, they might not see it or they might not realize it, like how important that is to kids. You know, my daughter, Anna. So she sometimes when she's having a very big emotion, you know, during that moment, I just always try to tell her, hey, just use your words, use your words. Tell me, say like how you feel. But for her, it's very difficult to vocalize how she feels. So there were some times when we had a fight or we had some arguments. I was busy in the kitchen and she would just like hit in the corner and throw me a piece of paper. And I picked up the paper. It was a drawing on it. And she drew her emotions on the picture with the eyes feeling sad and tears on the face. Then there's like a talking bubble, mom and said, no, you know. Then I was like, oh, are you trying to tell me how you feel? And she's like, yes, I cannot say it, but I can draw it.
完全同意。是的，尤其是现在，随着人工智能的兴起，人们开始认为一些工作，比如艺术设计，AI可以做。但真的是这样吗？你刚才说的，孩子们通过画画和艺术表达自己，这非常有趣，我想稍微衍生一下这个部分。我觉得大多数家长可能没有看到，或者没有意识到，这对孩子们有多么重要。你知道，我的女儿，安娜，她有时情绪很强烈时，我总是试着告诉她，“嘿，用语言说出来，告诉我你现在的感受。”但是对她来说，用语言表达她的感受是非常困难的。所以有时候，当我们发生争吵或有分歧时，我在厨房忙碌，她会躲在角落里，然后突然把一张纸扔过来给我。我捡起那张纸，上面是她的画。她在纸上画出了她的情绪：眼睛看起来很伤心，脸上有眼泪，然后还有一个对话框，上面写着：“妈妈说不行。”然后我就说，“你是在用这种方式告诉我你的感受吗？”她说，“是的，我说不出来，但我可以画出来。”
Shoshana:
Yeah. I mean, I think for me personally, that was a big part of why I went towards the art. I was always really quiet and didn't want to necessarily speak out and say these things, but it's such a great vehicle for expressing your ideas and your emotions. Yeah.
是的。我个人认为，这也是我走向美术这条道路的一个重要原因。我一直很安静，很多事情不太喜欢说出来，但艺术是表达我们思想和情感的一个很好的途径。
Lena:
Yeah. So that's the moment that I realized, okay, kids drawing to express their ideas and their feelings and all that is actually such an important tool for them.
是的。也是在那一刻我意识到，孩子们通过画画来表达他们的思想和感受，画画实际上对他们来说是一个非常重要的工具。
Shoshana:
And I absolutely agree with you. And I'm just going to show you one example that just popped into my head of a student that I have who has a lot of anxiety. And they made an image that was like showing their it was like their hands holding all of the weights of the world. And they described it as their piece that's demonstrating their anxiety and how they're trying to hold it together. You know, and like giving kids that space where they get to decide what they're creating and they get a vehicle for that emotional outlet can help them so much. And it really can be almost a therapeutic thing for many kids.
我完全同意你说的。我脑海中突然浮现了一个例子，想给你分享。我有个学生有很深的焦虑情绪，他做了一幅画，表现的是他的手握住了整个世界的重担。他把这幅画描述为展示自己焦虑的作品，表达了他如何努力保持一切稳定。给孩子们这样一个空间，让他们决定自己要创作什么，并为他们提供情感宣泄的途径，真的能帮助他们很多。对很多孩子来说，这几乎是一种治疗性的方法。
Lena:
Totally agree. So about how we approach kids to art, I have a theory, but I want you as a professional educator to give me some feedback about my theory, because I feel like for a lot of parents, we just think if my children loves drawing. And we just send her to a drawing class or just send them to some sort of like after school program that the teacher will teach you how to draw the skills and all that. Right. But I also feel like for some of the kids, you know, they don't like going to the class. They just enjoy drawing at home by themselves, like freely, like not not being told, you know, what to draw or how we how we draw it. Right. So I still have a lot of vivid memory about me being a kid when I was drawing. And I have so many ideas every day that I want to draw. It's just like you have those pictures showing in your mind and you just can't wait to express them on the paper. I think I started with one of my friends. She was also doing drawing, but her drawing was more copying some sort of drawing there. So she likes to copy it. And, you know, she made her drawing look so perfect. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, she's so good at this. But, you know, my drawing was just more like whatever, you know, it's like a very freestyle. It's not like looks very proper or so beautiful in the way the adults will feel it. You know, I just started copying it, too. And I want my drawing to look exactly like how that picture looks like. And then after a while, and I kind of feel like I started losing my ideas of what I want to draw. Then if I look at the blank paper and I don't have that many ideas popping up anymore, and I just always feel like, huh, these ideas are gone or something. So now for my own children, maybe how I approach the art education should be, I just want them to be able to freely express themselves, express their ideas first. It's not about drawing perfectly. It's not about drawing in the way that we feel like, oh, yes, it looks like art. And I didn't sign them up for any art classes, mainly because they my son, like he doesn't want to be signed up. I was just always providing them the tools and the materials at home, so they can just do whatever they want at home, which maybe for some parents, they feel like, oh, you are not really doing anything to support their art pursuing. But to me, I do believe that in the early year stage, I guess maybe before 10 years old or something, the focus on art education should not be just the skills, it's more about ideas and more about your expressions. So that is just my theory. So what do you think about it?
完全同意。那么，关于我们如何引导孩子接触艺术，我有一个理论，但我想让您作为专业的教育工作者给我一些反馈。因为我觉得，很多家长可能会认为，如果孩子喜欢画画，我们就该把他们送去美术班，或者参加一些课外课程，老师会教他们绘画技巧等等，对吧？但我也觉得，有些孩子其实并不喜欢去上这些课，他们只是喜欢在家里随心所欲地画画，不被指示该画什么，也不被规定该怎么画。
我对自己小时候画画的经历记忆犹新。我每天脑海里都会浮现很多画面，迫不及待地想把它们画在纸上。我记得当时有一个朋友也喜欢画画，但她的画更多是临摹一些现成的画，她喜欢照着原画一模一样地画出来，她的作品看起来特别完美。我当时心想：“哇，她画得太好了！”相比之下，我的画风就更加自由随性，可能在成年人看来并不那么“规整”或者“漂亮”。
后来，我也开始模仿她的方式，希望自己的画看起来更完美，就像原画一样。但是过了一段时间，我发现自己渐渐失去了那些原本源源不断的创意。如果面对一张空白的纸，我再也不像以前那样有那么多画面涌现出来，反而变得无从下手。我会想：“那些灵感都去哪儿了？”
所以，现在我在引导自己的孩子接触艺术时，可能采取的是另一种方式。我希望他们能自由地表达自己，表达自己的想法，而不是一味追求画得完美，或者符合成人眼中的“艺术”标准。我并没有给他们报名任何绘画课程，主要是因为我儿子也不愿意去上课。我只是提供各种画具和材料，让他们在家里随心所欲地创作。可能在一些家长看来，这好像并不是在“真正地”支持孩子的艺术发展。但对我来说，我相信在孩子10岁之前，艺术教育的重点不应该只是技巧，而更应该是培养他们的想法和表达能力。
这只是我的一个想法，您怎么看呢？
Shoshana: I mean, so I think that those classes that really focus on a specific technical skill, they have their place. And I think sometimes you need that push to understand how to get those technical, but it's not teaching you the creativity. I think that it has its place. And I never discouraged, like when I students talk about that they're looking for places to do, I never discouraged them from taking those classes. But when I approach how to teach art, and how I think it best serves the students that I work with, it's giving them that open studio time to create. Really, what I do within my own classroom is I provide them with materials, I provide them with a space. And I follow this curriculum called TAB, where the entire philosophy in three sentences is the child is the artist. The art classroom is the child studio. And we explore what artists do, we give them the space to figure out what they want to create. And that's, I think what kids really need. If we want to teach them creativity, we need them to have space to be creative.
我觉得，专注于某项技术技巧的课程确实有它的价值。我认为，有时你需要去了解一下如何去掌握这些技术技巧，但它们并不能教你如何发挥创意。我认为这些技巧的教授有它的用处，我从不反对想去参加这类课程的学生去参加这类课程。如果他们提到想找这样的地方上课，我会鼓励他们去试试。但当我考虑如何教授艺术创作时，我更倾向于给孩子们开放的创作时间。其实，在我自己的课堂上，我提供给他们材料和空间。我遵循一个叫做TAB(Teaching for Artistic Behaviors，简称TAB)的课程体系，它的整个理念可以用三句话概括：孩子是艺术家；艺术课堂是孩子的工作室；我们探索艺术家做什么，给他们空间去探索他们想要创作的内容。我认为这就是孩子们真正需要的。如果我们想要教他们创造力，我们就需要给他们创作的空间。
Lena:
So is that just what you call choice based lessons? Is that your teaching method?
那这就是你们所说的“选择性教学”吗？这是你们的教学方法吗？
Shoshana:
Yeah, so it's choice based lessons. It follows a philosophy called teaching for artistic behaviors or TAB. And it really focuses on the process of creating on developing studio habits and learning how to think like an artist over a finished product. I actually think the product and what they make in my class is very secondary compared to the process of creating and learning how to think like an artist, how to improve and grow. When I watch from year after year and give them the choice, they get to pick the mediums they're interested in working in. I'll have some kids who they're really into drawing and want to get better at that. And that's all they do in my class. And I watch their skill level improve on it. And then I have other kids who are really interested in building and more architectural things. And I have someone who in the same classroom is building a fleet of ships out of cardboard. So they get that space to hone in on the skills and the areas they're interested in and really be a creative thinker and do what they're passionate about.
对，没错，选择性教学。它遵循了“艺术行为教学”（Teaching for Artistic Behaviors，简称TAB）这一理念，主要关注创作的过程，培养工作室的创作习惯，学习如何像艺术家一样思考，而不是以成品为导向。我其实认为，在我的课堂上，孩子们做出的作品是次要的，最重要的是他们在创作过程中学到的东西，如何像艺术家一样思考，如何改进并成长。我看到孩子们一年年地选择自己感兴趣的媒介，他们有的很喜欢画画，想要提高绘画技巧，整个过程中我看到他们的技能不断提高。也有一些孩子对建筑类的东西非常感兴趣，可能有的学生会用纸板做出一系列船只。所以，他们有空间专注于自己感兴趣的领域，成为有创意的思考者，做自己热爱的事情。
Lena:
What would you say to those parents who would see this choice-based lesson as, well, they're not learning anything? Because back to the purpose-driven mentality, it's like, if I send you to an art class, what's the result? It's result-driven. What is the result? Does it show on paper or is it actually underlying children's mental development and emotional development? Or you probably only will see it like many, many years later when they are adults, right? So how can we let more people understand this freedom of approaching art?
那你会怎么回应那些家长，认为这种选择性教学的方式其实并没有学到什么呢？因为回到目标导向的心态，家长会觉得：“如果我送你去上艺术班，结果是什么？说回到以结果为导向的话，那这个结果是什么？” 到底这些能体现在作品上？还是其实是在孩子的心理发展和情感发展上有所体现？甚至你可能要等到孩子成年后，才能看到这些影响带来的变化，对吧？那么我们该如何让更多人理解这种自由接触艺术的方式呢？
Shoshana:
I mean, the same way when we send them to English class or when we send them to math class, we're not looking for the result to be, you know, the papers. We're looking for the result to be a kid who knows how to do this, who knows how to solve equations, who knows how to write. We're looking for a kid who knows how to think creatively, who has developed the ability to observe, to develop a craft and hone in on what their interests are and get better at it. So the model I look at is there's something called the “Studio Habits of the Mind”. This is what I'm describing that was developed out of Harvard. And they talk about giving them the space to develop these studio habits, to be a good thinker. That's what I'm encouraging kids to develop when they're in the art studio.
我觉得，这就像我们送孩子去英语课或数学课一样，我们并不是从他们的作业里看结果。我们希望的结果是，孩子知道如何使用所学的技能去解决问题，知道如何解方程式，如何写作。我们希望的是一个知道如何创造性思考的孩子，在这个过程中培养了观察能力，发展了自己的技能，能专注于自己感兴趣的事物，并不断在那个领域提升自己。所以我看的模式是“思维工作室习惯”。这是哈佛大学发展出来的，我所描述的就是这个。他们谈论的是给孩子们空间来发展这些工作室习惯，成为一个优秀的思考者。这就是我鼓励孩子们在艺术工作室里发展出来的能力。
Lena:
So would you say it would be just good enough if parents can actually set up a so-called home art studio or maybe just a corner in the room for children to be able to do art freely?
那你会觉得说，如果家长能为孩子们建立一个所谓的家庭艺术工作室，或者只是为他们腾出一个角落让他们自由创作艺术，这就足够了吗？
Shoshana:
I think that's in many ways one of the best things. I think within my class, the other thing that is really offered is being in a community of artists. So I actually find kids learn just as much, sometimes more from talking to their peers as they do from me. We end every single class with putting their work up on our critique wall and talking about what people have made. And I think sometimes even more so just talking to their peers next to them while they're making it and getting ideas from each other is a big factor. So it's, you know, being part of that community and feeding off others' ideas to me is a really big factor.
我认为这在很多方面是最好的做法。我认为，在我的课堂上，另一个真正重要的部分是，孩子们能处在一个艺术者的社区里。我发现孩子们有时候从与同龄人的交谈中学到的东西，甚至比从我这里学到的还多。我们每节课结束时都会把他们的作品贴到我们的评论墙上，让大家讨论他们彼此的创作。我认为，有时孩子们在创作过程中和身边的同学交流，互相激发灵感，这也是一个很重要的因素。所以，参与这个社区并从他人的想法中获得灵感，对我来说是非常重要的教学元素。
Lena:
I see. Yeah, that's very important, too, because I do sometimes like do the peer review with my oil painting classmates. I didn't know that some people could actually really give me some very good feedback that I've never thought of. Yeah. And it really inspired me a lot. So also, I'm very interested in your background because you have very extensive international experience. You've been to China, right? So you have studied in the U.S. and Paris, and then you lived and worked in China. From which year to which year?
明白，是的，这非常重要，因为有时候我会和我的油画同学做同行评审。我没想到有些同学可以给到我一些非常好的反馈，是我自己可能从未有过的很好的想法。是的，这个过程中确实给了我很多启发。
那么，我对你的背景经历也很感兴趣，因为你有非常丰富的国际经验。你去过中国，对吧？你在美国和巴黎都学习过，然后你还在中国生活和工作过。是从哪一年到哪一年？
Shoshana:
I think it was 2000. Oh, goodness. I think it was 2011 to 2014. Three years.
我想是2000年，哦天啊，我想应该是2011年到2014年，一共三年。
Lena:
Okay. Three years in China. You've taught in the Shanghai Foreign Language Primary School and Songqingling Primary School. These two schools are actually quite well-known in China. (Shoshana: Yeah). So how does it look like when you taught in these two schools?
好，在中国待了三年。你当时在上海外国语小学和宋庆龄学校任教过。这两所学校在中国也是相当有名的。（Shoshana: 是的）。那你在这两所学校任教时的情况是怎样的呢？
Shoshana:
So WFL, actually, I went in as just an English teacher. I wanted to move into art, but I got hired as an English teaching girl. That's why I only stayed one year and switched. But I think the thing I got out of working there that was really interesting is they followed the PYP program, the Primary Years Program, which is like the younger kids' version of International Declarate. I actually really enjoyed getting to understand more of that philosophy. I enjoyed that quite a bit.
在上外附小（WFL），其实我是以英语老师的身份进入的。我本来想转到艺术教学，但当时我是被聘为英语老师进入学校的。这也是为什么我只待了一年就换了工作。不过，我觉得在那里工作让我学到的一点非常有趣，那就是他们采用的是PYP课程，也就是小学阶段的课程项目（Primary Years Program），这相当于国际文凭课程（IB）中针对低年龄段的版本。我当时对这种教育理念很感兴趣，也很享受学习和理解它的过程。
Lena：
So what is that philosophy?
那这种教育理念是什么呢？
Shoshana:
So basically, with the IB program, they focus on general questions that are threaded through their curriculum. I think there's like, if I remember this right, there's like six guiding questions that you go through with your curriculum. And it's a lot more project-based, a lot more interactive learning, a lot less the teacher being the sage on the stage and telling you what to do, and a lot more interactive. And then Songqingling is where I went into just teaching art, which is my area. At that time, that was a long time ago now, I was still more following the discipline-based art education curriculum and gave more, everyone's going to do this type of a project at a time. I moved far from that. But even with that, I think comparatively to how things were taught in China, I still gave a lot more freedom within these projects of making choices of expecting each kid's project to look different from the kid next to them. So Songqingling has a domestic division and international division. And so the domestic division's art teachers very much were focused on the technical and every kid producing something quite similar. I think there's value to that. I think it helps kids hone technical skills. I don't want to like speak negatively of it.of course, but it doesn't teach creative thinking. (Lena: I see.) And it's so that piece I think is lacking in that model.
基本上，IB课程的特点是围绕贯穿整个课程的核心问题展开教学。如果我没记错的话，应该有六个核心问题，学生在学习过程中都会涉及到这些问题。它更加注重项目主导式的学习方式，互动性更强，而不是传统的老师站在讲台上单向授课，而是更加强调互动和探索。
后来，我去了宋庆龄小学，专职教授美术课，这才是真正属于我的领域。当时，那已经是很久以前了，我仍然比较遵循以学科为基础的艺术教育体系，也就是让所有学生同时完成同样的项目。但即便是这样，相比中国当时的传统教学方式，我仍然给予学生更多的自由度，比如在项目中做出自己的选择，让每个学生的作品与他们身边的同学有所不同。
宋庆龄学校有国内部和国际部。国内部的美术老师更专注于技术训练，希望每个学生的作品看起来都比较相似。我认为这种方法有它的价值，确实能帮助孩子们打下扎实的技术基础。我并不是要否定它，但它并不会真正培养学生的创造性思维。（Lena: 明白。）所以，我觉得这一点是这种模式里所缺少的部分。
Lena:
What is your observation for those Chinese students back in the days you've had?
你对当时教过的中国学生有什么观察或看法？
Shoshana:
I think if I look at the kids who are in the international division that are doing sort of the more choice based, more project based learning compared to the kids who are in the domestic division that are doing much more focus on drill and kill and members wrote memorization and learning to pass a test is that you get kids that are on one side in the domestic division, you get kids that are very good at taking a test and know the correct answers, but they don't necessarily know how to problem solve. And they don't know how to sort of do the critical thinking piece and the creative thinking piece. Whereas when you take kids who are educated in the international division that have a bit more choice and a bit more focus on project base, you're getting kids who are stepping into the roles of being a leader more, who are able to solve problems, who are able to work without a direct expectation. When you're working on a project at work, we aren't usually doing that with this is what the results are going to be. And we know it ahead of time, it's that you need to think creatively. So I think it fosters those skills a lot more so.
如果把国际部的学生 —— 他们接受的是更多选择性、更偏项目主导式的教育 —— 与国内部的学生相比，后者更多接受的是“填鸭式”教育，专注于死记硬背和应试技巧，我能明显看到两者的区别。在国内部，你会发现孩子们非常擅长考试，他们知道标准答案是什么，但他们不一定懂得如何解决问题，也缺乏批判性思维和创造性思维的训练。
相比之下，在国际部学习的孩子，他们在成长过程中会有更多选择，也会更加专注于项目主导式学习，因此他们更容易培养出领导力，更善于解决问题，也能在没有明确指令的情况下独立完成任务。在现实工作中，我们往往不会在一开始就知道最终的答案，而是需要在过程中不断探索和创造性的思考。因此，我认为这种教育方式能更好地培养这些关键能力。
Lena:
So tell me about if there is any culture shock to you when you actually entered in a Chinese institution.
跟我说说当时你进入中国的学校体系时，是否经历过一些文化冲击？
Shoshana:
I think in general, though, more of my culture shock had to do with my time in China outside of the classroom. Within the classroom, because it was schools that really were geared toward international, I think there was less of the culture shock in the way things ran there. The kids in general were very motivated and focused, which was wonderful. But I think the struggle that I saw was more outside of the classroom. I was really disturbed by their hiring practices that they really wanted to bring in an English teacher that looked a certain way. I had a close friend who was from Pakistan that spoke English flawlessly, and they didn't want to hire her because she looked brown skinned. And so I had a hard time with that teaching there. That was one of my biggest culture shocks.
总体来说，我当时的文化冲击更多是在课堂之外发生的。因为我所在的学校本身更偏向国际化，所以在教学管理上，我并没有感受到太多的文化冲击。总体而言，孩子们都非常专注和有动力，这一点很好。但我看到的问题更多是在课堂之外。例如，我对学校的招聘方式感到非常不适应。他们在聘请英语教师时，非常看重教师的外貌形象是否属于某一个特定的外国人群。我有一个很要好的朋友，她来自巴基斯坦，英语水平近乎完美，但学校却不愿意雇佣她，仅仅因为她是棕色肤色的外国人。这让我在教学过程中感到非常难受，这也是我经历的最大文化冲击之一。
Lena:
That absolutely will be a culture shock because coming from the U.S.,
这对于从美国来的人说，确实会是很大的文化冲击。
Shoshana:
I'm like, how can you just... The DEI pieces, I think, that is really integral in the U.S. is people don't care about it necessarily in China. And I think I was kind of coming from the U.S. expecting everyone to treat each other equally and to have that diversity, equity, inclusion bit, and it doesn't exist. That was a big one. And then the special ed barely exists, too, was what I was finding, at least in the school where I was. There wasn't a lot of focus on either you learn in the mainstream way or you're kind of failing. They weren't really working to help kids who are special needs learners in the way that I was used to seeing it done in the U.S.
是的，我当时的想法是，怎么会这样呢……在美国，DEI（多元化、公平和包容）是教育体系中非常重要的一部分，而在当时的中国，人们似乎并不太关注这些问题。我当时带着我在美国的经验来到中国，理所当然地认为大家也应该平等的对待彼此，并重视多元化、公平和包容。然而，现实并不是这样。这对我来说是个很大的冲击。
另外，我还发现特殊教育这个领域几乎很空白，至少在我所在的学校是这样的。教育体系基本上是，你要么按照主流的方式学习，要么就被视为落后。学校并没有像我在美国看到的那样，为有特殊学习需求的孩子提供帮助和支持。
Lena:
I see. So what about the interaction with parents back in the day?
明白。那你当时和家长的互动怎么样？
Shoshana:
Well, so this is a long way back, but I will say my memory of it is that their focus was probably mostly on literacy, especially with the English speaking staff. There was probably a lot less focus and a lot less concern over their artistic development. They really were just focused on if they're going to talk to the English speaking staff, it was focused really on how they were doing in developing their English language skills.
这已经是很久以前的事情了，但我印象中，家长们最关心的还是孩子的语言学习，尤其是英语能力的提升。特别是在与英语教师交流时，他们的关注点几乎完全集中在孩子的英语学习上，而对艺术或美术方面的发展，关注很少。
Lena:
I see. Well, with all of that experiences, like in a different country, different culture, you know, you landed in a gifted school in Silicon Valley right now, which is so interesting because people would be curious, like, how does it look like when you teach gifted learners about art? Is there any difference or they're actually the same?
明白。经过这些在不同国家和文化中的教学经历，你现在在硅谷的一所高智商儿童学校（gifted school）教美术课。这让人挺好奇的，给这些高智商的学生上美术课是怎样的体验？和其他学生相比，有什么不同，还是其实也没什么差别？
Shoshana:
Yeah, I think the reason I actually really love it so much is what the kids come in with just such a deeper, more thoughtful way of approaching the world. They come in with a lot more prior skills and knowledge to the point that I need to do some work to catch up to them. I have so many kids that know how to crochet, how to make advanced origami pieces, how to sew, how to knit, how to do things that in the typical school I'll have like one kid in the entire like out of like 200 kids that can do it. I've probably got like 30 of them that are doing it and that are more advanced than kids I teach elsewhere. So it's they just bring in so much richness and knowledge and that they pick up new concepts so quickly. They're just really developing at a quicker rate and they're a more rich development.
是的，我之所以很喜欢现在这份工作，也是因为这些孩子对世界有着更深刻、更有思考性的理解方式。他们总是带着更多的技能和更丰富的知识进入课堂，以至于有时候我需要花时间来追赶他们的步伐。我有很多学生会钩针编织、折叠复杂的折纸作品、缝纫、编织，这些技能在普通学校里可能200个学生里才会有一个这样的学生吧，但在这所学校里，我遇到的这样的学生可能就有30多个，而且他们的水平比我在其他地方教的学生高很多。他们带来了丰富的知识，学习新概念的速度极快，水平的提升发展比一般学生更迅速，也更深入。
Lena：
So do you find it challenging to teach these kids?
那么，教这些孩子会让你觉得有挑战性吗？
Shoshana:
Sometimes. I mean, so like I have one kid who I think has been like the number one student in California on his math test and he's into origami. I can't keep up with what he's doing. He's telling me about the types of folds he does and he's following this tutorial that's like a 10 hour long tutorial to make this man carrying a sword out of origami. I don't think I can keep up.
有时候会。比如，我有一个学生，他在加州的数学考试中是第一名，而且他是折纸艺术的狂热爱好者。我根本跟不上他的进度。他会告诉我他使用的各种折叠方法，以及他为了折叠出一个拿着剑的武士模型，他自己跟这个一个教程自学，这个教程长达10小时。我真的跟不上他的节奏。
Lena:
Yeah, those gifted kids, they tend to go deeper with things that they are interested in. Oh, I'm interested in this cup. Then I want to know everything about this cup, like everything.
是的，这些高智商小孩在他们感兴趣的事物上往往会钻研得非常深入。比如，他们对一个杯子感兴趣，他们就会去想要了解关于这个杯子的一切，所有细节都不放过。
Shoshana:
And it's amazing. And I love that with the philosophy I have, even though and he knows I can't quite keep up with his origami. In spite of that, what I give him is the space to dive further and the times where we talk about and critique how it's looking so far and how he's doing with it. And so there's just that encouragement of a creative space. And it's okay if you're diving in and doing something that I don't even know how to do. I might be learning from you, even though I'm the teacher that you are the creative thinker. Sometimes it just puts us on an equal playing field. You might know more about the subject you're diving deep into than I do because no one can be an expert in everything.
是的，这真的很神奇。在我的教学理论下，即使这个学生知道我无法跟上他的折纸水平，但我能给他提供的是一个让他深入探索的空间，并和他一起讨论、评价反馈他的作品进展以及完成情况。我会鼓励他们创造，这样的空间很重要。即使他们深入研究的内容超出了我的知识范围，这也没关系。作为老师，我也可以向学生学习，因为他们才是真正的创造者。有时候，这让我们站在了同一个水平线上——他们可能比我更了解某个领域，而没有人可以成为所有领域的专家。
Lena:
Yeah, this is so refreshing to hear you saying that because as an educator in the traditional mindset, we always tend to think, oh, you are the teacher. You should know more and you know the right answer. You know the correct answer. And I asked you, you gave me the answer. But actually, I feel like for art education, educators or sometimes parents, we are educators too. And we should put ourselves in the position that we're just supporting you, nurturing you and giving you the freedom. I do remember when I'm in my oil painting class, I sometimes ask questions to my professor and I was like, do you think I should do this way? I'm trying to just get the right answer from her. But she's like, you know, there's no answer. It's just your personal style. How do you feel about this? There's no right answer in art world.
听你这样说，真的让人耳目一新。因为在传统的教育思维里，我们总是认为老师应该比学生知道得更多，应该掌握所有正确的答案。学生提问，老师就要给出一个标准答案。但实际上，在艺术教育中，甚至在家庭教育中，我们作为父母，某种程度上也是教育者，我们应该把自己放在支持者和引导者的角色，而不是单纯的知识传授者。我记得在我的油画课上，我有时会问教授：“你觉得我应该这样画吗？” 其实我是想从她那里得到一个“正确答案”。但她的回答是：“在艺术世界里，没有标准答案，这取决于你的个人风格，你怎么看待这幅画？” 这让我意识到，艺术世界里真的没有唯一的正确答案。
Shoshana:
That's the beauty and the importance of the arts in general is it's not a one right way. It's kind of humbling at times because there isn't an answer and you're in this position where in education they talk about you're the guide on the side, not the sage on the stage. You're helping guide them towards finding the answer rather than telling them what it is. And sometimes their answers amaze me because almost every day I see kids creating things that I would never have thought to do myself and that are fascinating, especially with this gifted population that they're just incredible, the things they come up with. Yeah, it's humbling.
这正是艺术的美妙之处，也说明了艺术和美学教育的重要性。它没有单一的正确答案，有时候这甚至让人感到谦卑。在教育界，我们常说教师的角色是“旁边的引导者”（guide on the side），而不是“讲台上的圣人”（sage on the stage）。我们不是直接告诉学生答案，而是引导他们自己去寻找答案。有时候，学生们的答案会让我大吃一惊——几乎每天，我都会看到孩子们创造出我从未想过的作品，令人惊叹。尤其是在高智商儿童群体中，他们的创意简直不可思议。这让我深感敬畏。
Lena:
Maybe as parents who grew up in a different generation or different experience, and we need to shift our mindset a little bit to the way how we can actually really nurture kids with creative thinking.
也许作为成长于不同时代、拥有不同经历的父母，我们需要稍微调整一下自己的思维方式，去真正培养孩子的创造性思维。
Shoshana:
That's the beauty and the hard part of the arts is it's really hard to measure to find the right metric for these things. I think both as a parent and as a teacher, we want our kids to surpass us. We want them to do more than we even are capable of. And I want to be someone who enables and empowers the kids to do that.
这正是艺术的美妙之处，同时也是它的挑战所在——很难找到合适的标准来衡量艺术和美学。我认为，无论是作为父母还是老师，我们都希望孩子能够超越我们，能够做到比我们更优秀的事情。而我希望自己能成为一个赋能孩子、帮助他们实现这一目标的人。
Lena:
Yeah. I'm so happy that I have you today, you know, for this episode because I really wanted to create some space to advocate for art education. And I think it's so important for building up the fundamental elements of humanity, especially in the world that is so fast paced. And how can we still keep up with mental health? Right. And I think art is the answer. （Shoshana: Yeah.)
We really appreciate art teachers and art educators who are helping our kids thrive. In the last, I actually would like to share with you because my two children attend the school that you're teaching. And one day I just asked them, in your opinion, what is art? I'm curious, like how they see art, you know, as their individual perspective and which is very interesting. So let me play that for you to listen to it.
是的，我真的很开心今天能和你一起录制这期节目，因为我一直想为艺术教育创造一个发声的空间。我认为艺术和美学教育对人类最根本的素养建设至关重要，尤其是在这个节奏如此快的世界里，我们如何能够同时兼顾心灵健康呢？我觉得，艺术就是答案。(Shoshana: 是的。）
我们真的很感激那些帮助孩子成长的美术老师和艺术教育者。最后，我其实想和你分享一件事。我的两个孩子正好就读于你任教的学校。有一天，我去问他们：“在你们看来，艺术是什么？” 我很好奇他们会如何看待艺术，他们各自的理解非常有趣。所以，我想放给你听一听他们的回答。
*彩旦：哥哥和妹妹录音
Lena:
What is art?
什么是艺术？
妹妹Anna:
So art is when you get materials — it can be any materials — even garbage, you can turn it into a masterpiece and art piece. You just get it, and you can cut, draw on a piece of paper, and sometimes, you can just use glue. Art is when somebody feels inspired by one person and another, and they want to create something, and they do — that can become art and masterpiece
艺术就是当你拿到一些材料 —— 它可以是任何材料，甚至是垃圾——你都可以把它变成一副艺术品或杰作。你只需要拿起它，可以剪裁、可以在纸上绘画，有时候用一点胶水。艺术是当一个人受到另一个人的启发，产生创作的冲动，然后去创造，这样的作品就可以成为艺术，甚至是杰作。
Lena:
What is your answer, Alex?
你的答案是什么，Alex？
哥哥Alex:
Art is the very aesthetic creation. It doesn’t matter what it is, it doesn’t matter how it makes you feel, as long as you get inspired by something or you come up with something on your own, as long as you create anything that counts as art, as long as in your perspective if it is art, if it’s not to your perspective art, then it’s nothing.
艺术是一种极具美感的创造。它是什么并不重要，它带给你的感受也不重要，只要你受到某种启发，或者自己想到了什么，并将其创造出来，那就是艺术。只要在你的视角里它是艺术，它就是艺术。如果在你的视角里它不是艺术，那它就什么都不是。
Shoshana:
Awwww…… I love that.
嗷...... 我好喜欢他们的答案。
Lena:
I know. I was mind blown. I was like, how five and eight years old can understand art in such a deep way that I would never imagine myself, you know, would understand in that way in that age, you know?
我知道！我也震惊了。我心想，五岁和八岁的孩子怎么已经可以对艺术有如此深刻的理解？这是我完全无法想象的，我在他们这个年纪根本做不到以这样的方式去理解艺术。
Shoshana:
And I think they, coming out of my classroom, are expressing maybe better than I did today how my classroom runs and what the goal is for kids in there. We have it set up, there's stations. Some of them are literally, like, trash, like, bottle caps and pieces of cardboard and, like, little bits of plastic. And they have stations for drawing and they have stations for painting, and they get to choose and they get to make. And it's really trying to make them feel like I'm opening up what you can create. And the key is, it's your idea, what you're envisioning, what you're crafting. And so I think they express better than I do. The joy and the beauty of an open studio.
而且我觉得，他们从我的课堂里走出来，他们对艺术的表述比我今天的表达要好得多 —— 他们很好的诠释了我的课堂是如何运作的，以及教学目标是什么。我们的课堂设置了不同的创作站点。有些甚至只是一些用“垃圾”做出来的艺术作品，比如瓶盖、硬纸板碎片、小块塑料等等。他们还有绘画站、油画站，孩子们可以自由选择，随心创作。我真正想做的就是让他们感受到，我正在为他们打开一扇门，让他们看到创造的无限可能。而最重要的是，这一切都来自他们的想法，他们的想象，他们的创作。所以，我觉得他们比我更好的表达出了开放式艺术课堂的快乐与美好。
Lena:
That's amazing. And thank you for being their teacher. I'm so grateful.
太棒了！谢谢你成为他们的老师，我真的非常感恩。